Why Everyone Loves RWD Now

"Justin Hughes" (justinhughes54)
12/17/2014 at 21:05 • Filed to: COUNTERSTEER

What's better than hopping in, cranking the wheel full lock, and mashing the gas?

Raphael Orlove recently asked !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! Clearly he understands RWD. Look at his Baja Bug. I also enjoyed his article about the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! he recently drove, which is the poster child for the modern resurgence in RWD popularity. I own a BRZ myself, and have owned and driven many RWD cars before it. Yes, I'm a big RWD fan. So here's my answer to his question.

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RWD is fun.

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in an empty parking is totally senseless, and lots of fun. Or, if you actually use the steering to apply some semblance of control over the car, hanging the ass end of the car out as perpendicular to the direction of travel as possible is also a highly enjoyable experience. Yes, I've just described drifting. And yes, I believe that interest in drifting is one reason why RWD is popular today.

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Compare this to front wheel drive. You go into a corner too fast. If you hit the brakes, you understeer. If you hit the gas, you understeer. If you do nothing, you understeer. Understeer isn't fun. And, according to Richard Hammond, when you understeer, you hit a tree, and you die. Dying isn't fun, either.

Yes, I know there's a handbrake, and handbrake turns can be fun. And I know that left foot braking can make a FWD car's butt dance around pretty well too. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! taught me how. But I say that using a brake to make the car slide isn't nearly as fun as using the loud pedal and making those tires spin.

All wheel drive gets the job done, and does it well. Steer (and look) where you want to go, and the car puts the power where it's needed - enough to the front wheels to pull you out of trouble, but not so much to overpower them. That extra power goes to the rear, which can then slide a bit like a RWD car, but much more controllably.

It's too easy. Just point and click, like a PlayStation game. Maybe that's why AWD cars are so popular in them. But in RWD, the back wheels are constantly struggling to get ahead of the front wheels. This makes the back dance a bit under power, adding to the challenge - and the fun.

RWD is (generally) balanced.

50/50 weight distribution. That's the benchmark every front engine, rear wheel drive car strives for. The BRZ does pretty well, with 54% in the front and 46% in the rear. Others, like the Miata, many BMWs, and others, nail this target perfectly at 50/50.

Why is this important? Weight transfer. A FWD car is always going to be nose heavy, which is why it understeers so much. But in a balanced car, control inputs actually make one end of the car lighter than the other, rather than just making one end a little less heavy than it already is. The ability to put weight exactly where you want it is one reason why balanced cars like Miatas and BMWs are so rewarding to drive.

Sure, you can make an AWD mimic or resemble RWD - just send most of the power to the back. The AWD BMWs (and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ) sent 63% of their horses rearward. Why that particular amount? Because that also happens to be the amount of weight on the rear wheels under full acceleration in a 50/50 car. And it works. But you still have the front wheels there to pull you through if you get in trouble. And AWD, with the extra driveshafts and differentials, is heavier than 2WD no matter how you slice it.

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Mid-engine cars are a different story. They're not balanced, but a bit rear heavy, and there isn't much you can do about it. But mid-engine cars have a responsiveness in their steering that just isn't possible with a heavy engine between the front wheels. Whether you're talking about a Lamborghini or a rusted out AW11 MR2, the handling of a mid-engine car is truly something special. And you won't find any mid-engine car sending its power to only the front wheels (AWD, sure, I'll give you that).

The same goes for rear engine cars, like Porsches and Beetles. I haven't yet had the pleasure of driving one of these myself, so all I can come up with is that Porsche has done so much engineering, black magic, and blood sacrifices over the many years they've been putting the 911's engine in the wrong place to actually make it work without causing an !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

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RWD now has electronic aids.

More than anything, I think this is why RWD has become so common and available since almost dying in the 1980s and 90s. We've all seen the "Canadian Police Chase" video. In case you haven't, here it is.

This is the image most people have of the big classic American RWD cruisers, as opposed to FWD or AWD cars that easily go through snow. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! with a posi and snow tires was actually one of the best winter beaters I ever had, but that doesn't change the general perception of them.

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But with the advent of antilock brakes, other applications like traction control and stability control soon followed. Today, in any modern car, all four wheels are constantly monitored. If the speed of one differs from another, or if the car starts pointing in a direction other than straight ahead, brakes are automatically applied, individually to each wheel, to correct the situation faster than the human brain can react. Often this happens so quickly that the first indication the driver has of a problem is a flicker from the traction control light that isn't fully processed until the problem is already solved. With these systems fully operational, the typical RWD issues of wheelspin and oversteer are eliminated.

Suddenly, RWD has been tamed for the average driver. Manufacturers like Cadillac started introducing RWD back into their cars, making them look more like their German competition (who, ironically, started introducing AWD into more and more of their models). RWD has gone mainstream again, now that the average untrained driver is no longer concerned about getting stuck or spinning off the road.

This is great for enthusiasts who appreciate the joys of RWD. Suddenly there is a lot more selection of cars with our preferred drivetrain. Of course, sometimes the only way to disable the electronic nannies is to yank ABS fuses, but most performance oriented cars still allow you to shut them off from the driver's seat for some good old fashioned fun.

That's why I think everyone loves RWD now.

(Photo credits: Richard Nye, Allison Feldhusen)

DISCUSSION (100)

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Justin Hughes
12/17/2014 at 21:13

YES. I love RWD more than AWD and FWD. The FoST will be the LAST FWD car I ever own period.

Sn210 > Justin Hughes
12/17/2014 at 21:34

because all of the manufacturers moved way from it to appease the massive, but then they forgot about the buyers who actually still wanted it. They're realizing it now, and they're moving back towards the wide open RWD playing field.

44444444444 > Justin Hughes
12/17/2014 at 21:39

AWD > RWD (at least for wagons)

I know this is the unpopular opinion but for any wagon owner it's the right choice. There simply isn't enough mass in the back of a wagon to put any weight on the wheels.

At any given time there is probably only 700lbs on the rear axle of my AWD wagon: Fuel, differential/subframe, and however much body weight. Compare that to the front where you have an engine, transmission, subframe, and the body weight. the front weighs a helluvalot more. Wagons don't have 50/50 weight distribution.

However, if you make an AWD wagon FWD it can get a bit dicey... there is a lot of torque steer and wheelspin even with just 200hp.

Justin Hughes > 44444444444
12/17/2014 at 22:04

Kinja'd!!!

As much of a RWD fan as I am, one of the best cars I ever had was my RT4WD Civic wagon. I had a FWD version, too, and it worked fine. But with a set of studded snow tires, that RT4WD wagon was the best winter car I've ever had.

ly2v8-Brian > Justin Hughes
12/17/2014 at 22:17

Can confirm, drives RWD pickup in snow with auto locking diff. You have to really try hard to get it to slide around. Drives perfectly in snow.

Performance is not why I like RWD, it helps, but the main things are that the engine bay is generally easier to get around in (fuck sparkplug changes in a FWD Vconfiguration engine) and the feeling of the power being delivered to the rear wheels.

Justin Hughes > ly2v8-Brian
12/17/2014 at 22:27

I did courier work in Maine in a RWD Ranger. They put studded tires on the rear only for winter. Open diff, and no electronic aids. It was awful, even for me, who has won a few Ice Racing trophies in various Miatas. Actually that's probably the only reason I managed to keep it on the road!

ly2v8-Brian > Justin Hughes
12/17/2014 at 22:33

My first car was a RWD S10, just like your Ranger example open diff. Except practically zero driving experience and old all seasons. Ditched? Not even once. I have a pretty good intuition about car control (i'd like to think so anyway) and that continues to get me through the MN winters just fine.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 10:50

One tire can only do so much. Asking it to both propel the car and turn it really stresses them out...

irisfailsafe5000 > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:00

We love RWD because of TopGear and all the fun they have with real Wheel Drive. We love it again because of Jezza's crazy comments.And yes I think TopGear's influence is that big.

Earthbound And Down > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:00

If RWD has electronic aids now, it should probably go to the doctor.

Earthbound And Down > Earthbound And Down
12/18/2014 at 12:01

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all night.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:02

I made the switch from FWD to RWD a couple years ago with my 4Runner, and now own an FR-S. It's highly unlikely that I will ever go back to FWD. The FiST or FoST are about the only cars that could get me to make that switch, but if the RS is AWD I'd definitely opt for that instead.

RWD FTW!

Jonathan Harper > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:03

Kinja'd!!!

FUCK YEA RWD!!

Jonathan Harper > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:03

You ever checked out AMEC for ice racing?

fluxlinkages > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:06

IMO unassisted RWD challenges the driver's car control skills in a more complex way than FWD. both on track and during commute in extreme conditions.

The Transporter > ly2v8-Brian
12/18/2014 at 12:08

And with a transverse engine, a belt change goes from a 15 minute operation you can do by yourself to something that takes two days, three friends, a dozen busted knuckles, and a complete removal of the right front fender.

PureHate > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:09

RWD because drifting is big

Bryce Womeldurf > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:13

For me, it's basically that I've always had to have a cheap, reliable, boring car to commute in. My wife and I commute in her car now, so immediate reliability is less of a concern. I also just missed having my own car, and the rear wheel drive Japanese cars that I grew up wanting are now more affordable than ever. Since my Miata is a second car, I can take my time fixing things when something breaks, and I can fix it myself. Along with that, with only a few exceptions, I'd been driving nothing but front wheel drive since the '90s, and rear wheel drive is an interesting "new" experience that I wanted to learn from. It's not entirely different from driving front wheel drive but enough that there's still a lot to learn, and I enjoy that.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:13

That RWD. It's so hot right now.

Kinja'd!!!

macanamera > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:13

Nice write up, but I'm pretty sure there are some inaccuracies:

The AWD BMWs (and the original AWD Mustang ) sent 63% of their horses rearward. Why that particular amount? Because that also happens to be the amount of weight on the rear wheels under full acceleration in a 50/50 car.

^This isn't a constant, and can easily change, depending on a number of things... (wheelbase, suspension, etc.) This is why some AWD cars "launch control" settings use the softer suspension setting. Better weight transfer to the fat rear tires.

Why is this important? Weight transfer. A FWD car is always going to be nose heavy, which is why it understeers so much.

^This is kind of over-simplified. The whole point of trail braking in a RWD car is to transfer weight to the front and increase the friction of the steering tires, so just having the front bear more weight would not necessarily result in understeer, especially when the difference is as little as 5% in either direction. Instead, it's a lot more about what you said about being able to transfer the weight in a 50/50 car very well.

FWD cars by understeer the most when power is applied while turning. It's because those front two tires only have so much traction. If you are using some of that traction to apply power, then you have less of it to change direction with. In a RWD car, the front tires can do the turning, and the rear tires apply the power.

ly2v8-Brian > The Transporter
12/18/2014 at 12:14

Yes. That too.

GT86Sheppard > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:15

Going sideways in the FR-S is a stress reliever.

Quade > The Transporter
12/18/2014 at 12:19

Recently did the timing belt on my Odyssey. Was marginally harder than on a RWD car. Of course, it's a Honda and it might have been easy because it was well designed. I didn't need anyone's help. Did have to buy a 4 ft breaker bar to get the crank pulley bolt off.

zziro > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:21

I don't think the resurgence of interest in RWD is due to the popularity of drifting. I think it's pent up unmet demand. The general public who are aware of the difference between RWD and FWD have always had the notion that RWD was just better for some reason. The evidence they saw was that all the best cars were always RWD, ie. Mercedes, Porsches, Corvettes, Mustangs, Ferraris, the Rolls of Royce, and so on while also seeing that FWD is efficient unsexiness, ie. any car you buy when you're not rich. Auto industry marketers have finally realized that people still hold the assumption that RWD is premium, sporty, quality, cool.

All these theories about drifting and RWD handling characteristics is over-thinking the situation. Those things go right over the head of the majority of car buyers. Most car buyers don't know or care about drifting, but they still want RWD.

PeteRR > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:22

In the beginning I was lucky, and later I've made a conscious choice, in that I've never owned a fwd car. A few 4x4s, but other otherwise all rear wheel drive.

whoisbobbarker > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:23

There's no reason that a FWD car can't be well balanced. I've driven a few that make it easy to induce oversteer. Almost every "performance" FWD car is fun to drive, the ST twins, Preludes, MINI, etc.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
12/18/2014 at 12:24

I'm happily in the RWD world at the moment, but never say never!

Autojunkie > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:25

The fact is too that early on, FWD was pushed on the consumer even tough the majority were against it at first. The manufacturers love FWD because of better interior packaging for smaller cars, thus less weight, and thus better CAFE numbers. It didn't take too long before consumers believed the hype about "being safer" and "more fuel efficient", etc. In all honesty, the consumer benefits were minimal when compared to the manufacturer's gains in overall CAFE so it was pushed to the masses. Eventually, the tide led toward FWD cars because the consumer started to demand it. Much like it's always been in the auto industry, it's getting harder and harder for the manufacturer's to justify catering to the enthusiasts.
Lucky for us, I see a combination of drifting, more car shows on TV than ever before, and quality racing games of all kinds for the game consoles as the top three culprits for engaging a whole new generation of enthusiasts and teaching them about what's right/wrong about cars in our hobby.

In the 80's, it seemed as though the hobby was dying a slow death, but by the late 90's it finally started to evolve into everything we see today. FWD, AWD, and RWD all have their benefits and now we have more choices of each than ever before (finally!).

Kinja'd!!!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:26

Kinja'd!!!

Look like the OppoBlog share worked. Congrats on the front page!

http://oppositeblog.kinja.com/

The Transporter > Quade
12/18/2014 at 12:26

Honda is a bit better than most at giving (barely) usable room between the belts and the fender. Most leave just enough room to, coincidentally, slide a credit card through.

theart > 44444444444
12/18/2014 at 12:27

But a wagon still puts more weight over the rear wheels than a similarly layed out sedan.

Justin Hughes > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
12/18/2014 at 12:31

Thank you! And thanks for my work to the blog!

noRWDnoCARE > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:34

See username.

spanfucker retire bitch > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:34

And, according to Richard Hammond, when you understeer, you hit a tree, and you die. Dying isn't fun, either.

I mean, if we're just going to list nonsensical gibberish, if you're driving on a road (not a track) and you oversteer you're going to go into oncoming traffic, hit a car, and then die.

Justin Hughes > Jonathan Harper
12/18/2014 at 12:35

I've heard of them. They're a bit far for me, but maybe I should ponder a weekend trip sometime.

Justin Hughes > The Transporter
12/18/2014 at 12:35

Same goes for an oil filter in some cases. My Saturns were like that, as well as a friend's Alfa 164.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:37

Kinja'd!!!

AW11 FTW!

DAKINS124 > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:40

Compare this to front wheel drive. You go into a corner too fast. If you hit the brakes, you understeer. If you hit the gas, you understeer. If you do nothing, you understeer.

False.

Go into a corner hot with a proper FWD and lift off the gas, behold the resulting over-steer.

loki03xlh > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:40

I just got rid of my last FWD car ('01 Grand Prix). I will never own another one. I've got my S-10 to DD and haul crap around in and my 3rd gen Firebird to hoon the crap out of.

Justin Hughes > macanamera
12/18/2014 at 12:43

You are correct on both counts. AWD systems (as opposed to 4WD) constantly vary how much power goes where. The 63/37 split I described is the default ratio on a BMW. Others send most or even all power to the front until slippage is detected, and only then throw some power to the back.

As for understeer in FWD, preventing that is the very point of left foot braking. Braking transfers more weight to the front so it'll have better grip, while simultaneously giving it power to steer and prevent lock-up. This lightens the rear and allows it to oversteer, helping you turn instead of fighting it.

I oversimplified this into "FWD always understeers" mainly for comedic effect. I don't actually believe that Porsche has a blood sacrifice portion of their assembly line, either.

Justin Hughes > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
12/18/2014 at 12:44

I cross shopped the FiST and BRZ, and decided I wanted a car built from the ground up to be a genuine sports car, rather than an econobubble that had been (very effectively) converted into one. The FiST and FoST are both great cars.

HoratioGiovanni > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:46

...People stopped loving RWD?

I've almost exclusively owned RWD cars, and they've always been great. Even without all that fancy ABS and traction control nonsense, while it may be easier to lose control of a RWD car in the snow, it's also easier to regain control. And that tech isn't really a modern thing. My 1995 Caddy has ABS and traction control. Luckily, you can shut it off with a switch in the glove box if you want to have some fun. Outside of that, it's next to impossible to spin the damn thing out, unless you're actually trying. 1995, people.

FWD was some horribly misguided fad that went on for way too long.

Justin Hughes > zziro
12/18/2014 at 12:46

I think all of these reasons are true. I think like an enthusiast, because I am one, and I have been correctly accused of overthinking and overanalyzing before. Other people think, "It's good enough for Mercedes/Porsche/Corvette/Mustang/Ferrari/Rolls, so it's good enough for me."

Honesty > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:47

Affordable RWD cars used to be very rare 10 years ago. You explained why people love RWD, not why people love RWD now.

Justin Hughes > whoisbobbarker
12/18/2014 at 12:48

I admit, I loved my B13 Sentra SE-R.

I would never, ever, have believed that a bone stock, off the showroom floor, original Mini Cooper - not an S, OEM tires and all - could slalom faster than my stock class Miata on R-compound tires. Never. Until I actually did it myself at an autocross school.

Justin Hughes > spanfucker retire bitch
12/18/2014 at 12:53

But oversteer is better, because you don't see the tree coming before it kills you.

Lalkidu > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:55

I just went from my Acura TSX (manual) of 11 years to an M235i RWD (manual with LSD) and its AMAZING! oh Lord, the balance is phenomenal even on day to day driving, I love intersections now where I have to make a turn :-) puts a smile on my face every time.

macanamera > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:55

Others send most or even all power to the front until slippage is detected, and only then throw some power to the back.

I hate to be pedantic, but I think you said this exactly backwards. Most performance AWD systems send all the power to the back, until slippage is detected, and then they send some to the front.

Justin Hughes > Honesty
12/18/2014 at 12:55

I think the modern electronic traction aids (a.k.a. nannies) are why RWD has made a comeback. It's much easier for an unskilled driver to handle a RWD car with the computer brains doing some of the work.

jRaskell > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:55

I've been driving over 25 years now, and have never owned a FWD vehicles. Excluding one 4WD pickup I owned for a few years, I've only ever owned and driven RWD vehicles and likely will only ever own and drive RWD vehicles.

Auggie > macanamera
12/18/2014 at 12:57

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think having more mass (engine and all the drivetrain) over the front wheels would be different than just having more weight (from trail braking) over the wheels. More mass means more momentum pushing your trough the corner while shifting that weight just rearranges what is there? Just a thought. Making the front wheels do everything definitely encourages understeer though.

spanfucker retire bitch > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:59

Or the semi. Hell, you won't even FEEL the semi.

HurtOnDirt > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 12:59

Love RWD? Thanks Corolla . . .

Kinja'd!!!

Justin Hughes > macanamera
12/18/2014 at 13:00

No, I meant to say it this way. Performance AWD does send most power to the back. But my RT4WD Civic wagon was FWD until the wheels slipped, and only then sent power to the back. Earlier Imprezas also acted like FWD until traction conditions induced them not to.

Zero > The Transporter
12/18/2014 at 13:01

Not entirely true, I've changed the belt on my 08 Accord in about 15 minutes with just a breaker bar needed to release the auto tensioner pulley.

Honesty > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 13:01

My E36 had traction control. That car was a 1997. It was just not really an option for a lot of people until it was about 10 years old.

macanamera > Auggie
12/18/2014 at 13:02

Like I said, it comes down to a lot of things. I just wanted to make it clear that simply having more weight over the front wheels isn't the defining reason why FWD cars understeer. Rear wheel drive 911s can understeer under power, exactly because there is like no weight over the front under heavy acceleration.

macanamera > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 13:03

Ok, I see what you meant.

ME 4-12 > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 13:09

A locking diff makes a world of difference in the wet and snow. My Miata has a Torsen which is obviously not a locking diff, but is still a form of lsd and far from an open diff and it has been the best winter vehicle I have ever had. You really have to try to kick the rear end out.

505Turbeaux > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
12/18/2014 at 13:18

perfect

Jason.MZW20 > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 13:19

I find most FWD cars have way too much front brake bias for that to work effectively. With adjustable-bias, yes, definitely. From the factory, no, you'll just generate more understeer and cause difficulty steering (esp. in non-ABS setups). The sidewalls just give up, but you'd have to be pretty much at the limit.

Honda allows suspension settings that induce lift-off oversteer in some vehicles, so you can just focus on pinning the apex.

Front heavy, RWD V8s understeer just about as much as many I4 FWD cars (maybe more in some extreme cases). The difference is that you can mash the throttle in the V8 and correct it, whereas the FWD will just squeal wide on power.

I tend to apply power in FWD cars when the front wheels are mostly straight just a bit after the apex, so this requires having a bit more momentum going in to not lose too much time. The reason being is torque-steer just fucks with the balance through the corner.

But, I'm partial to the dynamics of MR setups, and braking mid-corner in these is a something many FWD drivers tend to do, and the consequence is a rather nasty spin.

Edibrac > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 13:19

That's exactly how I ended up in my BRZ as well.

ME 4-12 > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 13:21

A limited slip or locking differential and proper balance make a world of difference on a rwd in the winter. My wife drives a Genesis Coupe and between the heavy front end and open diff it is terrible in the snow. It doesn't kick the rear end out, it just can't get traction to even get moving to begin with. Yet my 01 Miata that you would think is the worst car ever for winter is unstoppable as long as it isn't plowing (which is pretty easy since it is so short). My Miata is the SE that came with a 6 speed and a torsen diff and between the extremely low gearing, the torsen, and the perfect weight balance it just doesn't get stuck. Granted, I do usually throw 120lbs of water softener salt in the trunk of the Miata if snow is predicted (I put closer to 200lbs in my wife's car).

Also, I personally feel I would rather have a rwd over a fwd in the snow even if it is an open diff. While a rwd can fishtail or just not go due to the weight being in the front (looking at you trucks), it won't just stop steering due to understeer and if it does it is in a situation where a fwd car would have done so sooner. I don't know about your, but given the choice I would take oversteer over understeer any day of the week. There are situations where neither are manageable, but in general oversteer is usually more manageable than understeer because you can still steer the car, the car just becomes "wider". With understeer you are just SOL and better hope there's nothing in front of you.

drdude > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 13:47

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

djmt1 > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 13:49

I preferred this to Raphael article and your answer is better than my own of "Tokyo drift brah".

I still disagree with the whole RWD FTW fad partly because I think drifting is dumb and mostly because living in the UK RWD just ain't worth it.

MazdaMonkey > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 13:57

Enthusiasts have always preferred RWD. Orlove is insane for implying that people just now discovered how great RWD is.

Gonemad > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 14:00

What's better than hopping in, cranking the wheel full lock, and mashing the gas?

Surviving it to tell everybody.

Eric Sundell > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 14:08

To anyone that saws FWD or AWD is better, has not driven a good RWD car. It's world changing. It may not be fastest but who cares. I just sold my A4 Quattro which was a great winter car, don't get me wrong it had tons of grip and would always get you where you needed to go, even through deep snow thing chewed through it. But I now drive an old Volvo 240 and the giggles... oh my god the giggles.... The smile on my face won't come off driving this car on dirt or snow. It's seriously so much fun it should be illegal.

the dude > ly2v8-Brian
12/18/2014 at 14:10

I have done fine on my Nissan hardbody 2wd for the past 14 years through ice storms down near Wichita and near blizzard conditions in Colorado for ski trips. Not ditched it once yet.

A little sand in the bed and it is solid on the slippery stuff.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 14:13

Yeah, the FiST and FoST were pretty much the only other cars I was considering, but I never even got a chance to drive them. Test drove my 2nd FR-S and bought it the same day. haha

EtrnL_Frost > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 14:18

Look, I really love RWD. For the past 15 years I've had nothing but RWD cars. And I think they're more "natural" around corners than FWD cars, which you correctly state leave you with less options around the bends.

But you forget that there are some FWD cars that exhibit lift-off oversteer. That is all.

EtrnL_Frost > DAKINS124
12/18/2014 at 14:23

Ah, first mention of FWD liftoff oversteer I saw, thanks!

So oversteer is definitely possible, and even easy, in a FWD car (my MINI says hello), but ... well, lift-off oversteer is still less ideal than oversteer via RWD throttle. Of course, it's car dependent, but you have multiple axes of control w/ throttle induced oversteer vs liftoff induced oversteer.

FWD you still need to decrease power, whereas in RWD you're actually adding power. I'm not sure which is faster, but I can definitely tell you which is more fun ;)

Jdublu > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 14:42

My Genisis Coupe (RWD) is only fun to drive with traction and stability control turned OFF.

meatatarian > Honesty
12/18/2014 at 15:13

That TCS system is absolute garbage though. It's a second inline throttle body before the main throttle that closes when slip is detected. Not even comparable to the newer stuff, there's a reason most people (myself included) deleted it entirely

lawlence > 44444444444
12/18/2014 at 15:15

Not true. I used to own an E46 Touring which had a 50:50 weight distribution. Wagons generally weigh MORE than their sedan/coupe counterparts in the rear. You have the same equipment back there, plus a longer trunk floor, reinforcement for torsional rigidity, and reinforcement for the large rear hatch.

stiggalicous > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
12/18/2014 at 15:16

I was very close to buying a BRZ, but after test driving both cars I went with the FoST and never looked back. For less money I got nearly double the torque at half the RPM, much wider tires for better traction, comfortable room for 4.5 people, space to load in a dozen 8' 2x4s and a table saw, and a very enjoyable time on the track. The FoST is just so much faster at every venue except a drifting concert. Oh, and insurance was much much cheaper.

Yes, RWD seems more fun on the track, and it sure is a hoot (also having experience with the BRZ on the track), but you also get black-flagged if you drift any corners corners at every organization I track with. I do find the FoST more fun on the track .

The BRZ does have better agility and can power out of turns quicker, but I'm more interested in not falling off the road than I am getting the fastest speed out of a corner.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > stiggalicous
12/18/2014 at 15:21

Fair enough. The FoST is an amazing car too. The Toyobarus and ST twins are easily the best enthusiast cars out there for the money, in my opinion. The new Mustang is around there too, and possibly the new Camaro. We'll have to see.

But yeah I kind of wanted the space/practicality of a hatch too, but in reality I don't really need it. I also barely ever drive more than one other passenger in my car. I'm going to get a 22re pickup or 4Runner before next winter as my winter/practical vehicle, and store the FR-S in the winter.

Honesty > meatatarian
12/18/2014 at 15:24

It applies the brake on the rear wheels as well. And it has an LSD. It has control of its traction, that's for sure.

meatatarian > Honesty
12/18/2014 at 15:32

The LSD part is great, it's an old-school mechanical LSD that has absolutely nothing to do with the TCS. E36s don't really make enough power to worry about putting it down if you have decent tires, the LSD is really great for slidy fun times though

Christopheroni > 44444444444
12/18/2014 at 15:49

"Wagons don't have 50/50 weight distribution."

Tell that to the CTS-V wagon.

Honesty > meatatarian
12/18/2014 at 15:54

The issue is traction control. The "traction control system" isn't great, but the car controls its traction as traction is held in check quite well through its LSD and TCS, and yes, manageable power. All this further proves my point that traction control systems are not brand new fangled designs that made everybody suddenly fall in love with RWD cars. It's the fact that many good RWD vehicles were unattainable until recently.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > ly2v8-Brian
12/18/2014 at 15:57

I'm a firm believer of only getting a car with a V engine if it has a longitudinal engine layout.

If it's transverse, then stick to an inline engine.

Of course the easiest to work on is usually an inline engine with RWD.

Doppelkupplung > The Transporter
12/18/2014 at 16:08

And that is why I haven't fixed my water pump bearing yet. I'd rather hear the squeaks than try to do it when I am already stressed by finals.

The Transporter > Doppelkupplung
12/18/2014 at 16:11

Don't even get me started on water pumps. I've lost too much money to one of those.

Justin Hughes > stiggalicous
12/18/2014 at 16:14

If I needed the practicality, I would've gone for a FiST or FoST. They're all great cars.

fritzo > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 16:25

My BMW 330i was THE best driving car I've ever owned. The RWD just pushed the car forward with the confidence of a tank. Loved that car.

Doppelkupplung > The Transporter
12/18/2014 at 16:29

I'm just assuming it is the water pump bearing. Sounds like it is coming from there but whenever I get home to check, the noise stops so it's just a, "Well, fuck," situation.

DougNuts > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 16:49

I agree with everything except the part about drifting. That group is a very, very small number of people. Even among the relatively small group of car enthusiasts, drifting fans are a minor subset.

Rein44 > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 17:01

^This. In most of America, we've had to drive our cars in snow and ice, and RWD always needed particular skills to control in these conditions. To complicate things, in the early 90's, many RWD cars were getting stupid-power but had zero traction control or driving aids (the early 90's F-body was downright dangerous on black ice). On the other hand, FWD cars were getting more power and sportier suspensions, along with safety and control in variable conditions. That is why FWD cars gained.

NOW: all RWD cars have traction control, driver's aids, and some LSD. They are not as scary to drive in bad conditions, so people are going back to them for the fun factor they've always had.

Zer0 sometimes clicks on things > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 17:02

I believe all Haldex systems are this way too. If I remember correctly, the absolute max torque they can send to the rear is 50%, and most of the time it's more like 5% to the rear.

Kevin Rhodes > 44444444444
12/18/2014 at 19:11

My e91 BMW wagon has 51% of its weight on the rear wheels. So while what you say may be true for old American bombs with cast iron boat anchors under the hood, it certainly is not true for properly engineered German cars.

jdl1527 > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 19:31

I would agree that traction control and stability control have helped out RWD a lot to go main stream again, I dd a G35 in WI and I honestly love the traction control and stability control system in it, I can turn it "off" when I want and have fun. And its fun to try to upset the car on snow with the system on, it just corrects it self. Now im not all about the nannys either as I have a S13 as my summer/track car :)

I have been thinking long and hard about getting a FiST my self but not sure if I can bring my self to go back to FWD for a DD. But its very tempting as it will be in H stock for SCCA next year :)

Ratchets > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 20:02

How do you get into ice racing a miata? Ive asked my local clubs and they wont even let me rallycross mine.. They said that according to the rules the car has to have a permant steel roof. Ie not a convertable like a miata. Even with a roll bar and hardtop they were unsure about it.

ly2v8-Brian > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly
12/18/2014 at 20:05

you are technically correct, the best kind.

HG_Pennypacker > Justin Hughes
12/18/2014 at 23:24

I will only drive RWD because it my skill as a driver, or lack thereof, as important as the car itself. RWD is like a tough to hit golf club or tennis racquet. One really only for advanced players. A mishit will show harder (and provide more pronounced feedback as to having made an error), but, when hit properly, things can be done which could not be accomplished with a beginner's stick. Most race cars are RWD. There's a reason.

HG_Pennypacker > Justin Hughes
12/19/2014 at 00:24

This brings up another point. When oh when is someone going to make a lightweight, RWD, sedan? A return to the E30, if you will. Or think of it as a 4 door FR-S or Miata.

Viggen9er3 > Justin Hughes
12/19/2014 at 05:45

I am in Canada, FWD is a good thing to have in snow. That said, I would rather have an AWD system like Subaru's

DAKINS124 > EtrnL_Frost
12/19/2014 at 12:24

As far as speed through the corner, it's a wash. With RWD you have to brake far earlier than with a FWD and power through the corner, with FWD, you brake much later, carrying speed and trail braking, then power on afterwards.

EntropicRR > 44444444444
12/19/2014 at 12:33

RE: RWD Wagon

Bro,

Do you even subwoofers?

Signed,

Deaf Wagon Hoon

EtrnL_Frost > DAKINS124
12/19/2014 at 12:53

To be fair, I think "it's a wash" is a bit of a "safe" answer. What I think we should do to find out is grab a car that is available in the 3 different drives, and then using the same driver, have them take the same turn with the same entry speed (before the brake point) and then observe exit speed!

The reason why I'm unwilling to claim it a wash it because (in my experience, of course) RWD and FWD are just too different - there are too many variables to really make a fair comparison. Case in point - for RWD, my experience is with an '95 S10 pickup, an e34 535i, e36 318i, e36 m3, e39 m5. For FWD, my experience is with a '80's era Dodge Caravan, 2003 MINI Cooper, 2014 MINI Cooper S Coupe. For AWD, experience is limited to a Subaru WRX and MINI Cooper S Countryman All4 (really? That's a long ass title). When I say "experience", I'm saying that I've spent more than "just a few days" driving the car and actually getting familiar and comfortable with them.

You can't really compare these due to engine differences, weight differences, tire differences, etc. Well, the scientific method in me says so, at least.